The Ongoing Struggle of Older Pastors vs. Younger Pastors
I used to describe some of what I do as “Worldview Therapy,” defined as anger management for younger leaders and grief recovery for the older.
I’ve met hundreds of the first group on the road who are genuinely upset about the state of the Church and its ministers. They fear that the iron hand of Boomer control will remain in place so long that, by the time circumstances force some transitions, it will be too late. Many of these younger friends were simply walking away from the Boomer vision of church, often identified as the “big box” (like Wal-Mart).
The rationales I heard ranged from what one friend called his “postmodern crisis” to more traditional reasons like a lack of personal relationship with the senior leader.
Almost simultaneously, the older ministers I was meeting a couple years ago were talking to me off the books about feeling like the future was slipping away from them. These peers kept a brave face, and were often regarded as successful, but they expressed dismay over the unwillingness of the young to follow them, either as members of their churches or their staffs.
So I invested a lot of time encouraging the young ones to look past the angry part to some new sense of mission. I told the old that their best days could still be ahead of them if they listened for God’s voice. I thought I had this kind of thing pretty much sorted out.
Then a couple months ago I started hearing some new language from both tribes. First, a group of youth ministers shocked me with their positive statements about their senior pastors. Didn’t they know this relationship is supposed to be tense?
Then, a thirtysomething leader told me that he actually is past the angry part now and wants to work on “re-embracing” his heritage (in this case Pentecostal) but is unsure how to do so without identifying with some aspects of our neighborhood that he finds questionable.
Just weeks before, a successful mid-life leader of a big box ministry made a confession in front of a discussion group I was leading with these words: “I am so tired of church.” His comments took the air out of the room, but they were repeated in yet another state by a pastor of about the same age who openly speaks with his staff of his search for something (anything) fresh and meaningful in his calling.
Obviously this is weird science, so I have no way of knowing how representative these remarks are, but consider the possibility that there are at least three ways that these leadership cohorts relate to each other:
(1) Problem/Solution: conflict ensues when each side sees itself as the solution to the “problems” represented by the other, e.g., both view their counterpart as unwilling to listen to the ideas that could fix things.
(2) Solution/Solution: relational distance increases when each cohort advances a different solution for the problems of the Church overall, creating a war of paradigms.
(3) Problem/Problem: both groups might come together around their mutual inadequacies if key influencers among them could simply say their own problems out loud—with their peers at first, and then in each other’s presence.
What if older leaders heard the young say something like, “I’m ready to re-embrace substance, but not style, how do you understand the difference?”
And what if the young heard the middle-aged say something like, “This church thing is taking the life out of me; why do you still love it?”
I’ll spot you that this is a fantasy meeting of the first order that would require a breathtaking level of honesty that lots of us may not have to give. But perhaps that’s because we’ve had almost no models. I also want to stipulate that conflict per se is not evil. In fact it can create long-term health. So the point here is not to eliminate it, but to prevent it from squandering our potential together.
Neither battling over alternative solutions nor treating each other as diseases to be cured is a path forward. What if we changed our vocabulary at times from accusation (“You’re weak”) to confession (“I’m weak”)? The worst that could happen is that we would have something to talk about other than the ways in which we do not get along.
Thie blog originally appeared in Monday Morning Insights
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quite a dream – wish it could happen
Though most may possibly scoff at this idea, this is, in my opinion, a crucial meeting point to initiate if the worldwide church has any desire to become more unified in its mission.
it is happening. at least in some isolated cases across the church. something happened in my life a couple of years ago. God changed me and took me on a journey. He did the same in my oldest son. we ended up at the same point about the same time. so I guess we are living proof that it is happening.
my life and ministry is taking on an entire new look. there is more excitment in me for ministry than i have felt in years. had to follow paul’s advice in galatians 2:20 and found that it worked. maybe this is the key for all of us, we just need to die to ourselves and let Christ live in us.
you are right that conflict can be good. the conflict forced me to look further and deeper than i had before. it took me to the place of death and then life. and life is good.
thanks earl for giving me the final strokes on the canvas that i needed.
no scoffing here – I just don’t see it happening in my sphere anyway…and a reminder, it has to be 2 way to work.
I think it’s entirely a possibility. My pastor and I have had this very same conversation about two or three times over the last few weeks. It makes me more willing to learn and contribute what I can, while at the same time, it seems to give him a new spark of hope in the prospects of future leadership. Honesty is key.
I too am a man who has those (younger than I) under may authority. My tendancy is to make personal judgments concerning their style, wanting more substance. Then I realize I am making judgments about myself. I see the real battle beneath their own function as leaders is the same reality that I battle with everyday, my own significance and security. Oh wretched man that I am! Why can’t I grab hold of the words of Christ in Matthew 6? Why can’t I live in the reality that my significance and security is in Christ and his kingdom? I think living in this pardigm requires a lot of dying to self (Luke 9:23) and submission to the message and mission of Christ.
I think some how God is going to “mature” some of us 40somethings past our own insecurities to be the bridge builders or “gap people” as I like to call them to bring the generations together.
But with the mentality that some older boomers have of ruling with an iron fist, this may take a while.
THis is quite a polarizing topic…it carries some very deep emotional baggage for many of us young guys….BUT…I had to get over it! Most of the self-proclaimed mentors in my ministry life had good intentions (most of the time), but were incompetent mentors at best…their generation really was not equipped to walk with us…they were trained to be very individualistic,especially in the Pentecostal experience. This was embraced because of the emphasis that is put on individualism in American culture…We are now seeing the problem with the “lone-ranger” syndrome…There is no one to pass the legacy of ministry down to….partly because those of us who are not in our 50s have decided it isnt worth the hurt and quite frankly, the EFFORT to deal with incompetent mentoring….I have been blessed with a couple of, as Earl puts it, “painfully orthodox” men who really understood that the Christian life is relational…they sowed into my life and and I very thankful….Because of them, I was foced by the Holy Spirit to get over myself and my hurt and realize that this this is bigger than me and, as the Apostle Paul puts it, living a life worthy of my calling is MY responsibility…our responsibility…Both young and old….
I’d like to know what that actually looks like for you apprehensive.
Apprehensive, I too have been bit by the Lone Ranger mentality that says, “bless God, I had to get it the hard way, you should have to get it the hard way too!”
Part of the problem IMO especially for us in the AG is we have developed a “team building mentality” when scripture never teaches us about building teams; the Kingdom of God is about building families! Raising up spiritual sons and daughters is just too charismatic for most older ministers in the AG…and that attitude is driving many great young visionaries independent or to other fellowships…and even out of the ministry all together!
In my world I get to hang out with young leaders constantly and it’s refreshing. These guys (as a Yankee this is a gender neutral term) have so much passion and energy but seem frustrated with the inability to authentically live out Christ in a non-traditional model. Or being told to do so, but without support.
I’d really like to see how this practically works because I have yet to see it – - I am doubtful the modern and postmodern leaders can, at this time, actually exists within a modern church. I’m not talking about appreciating each other or having good dialog.
I sympathize with Ari’s skeptical attitude as to how this worldview therapy might happen. Outright optimism feels more like a hallmark commercial more than looking honestly at our situation. Still, I think we are forced to hold onto hope regarding “the parousia of generational resolution.” For me, its mentors that have practiced the discipline of death (shameless plug for Earl’s book). :)
Only then can my mentor lead me into understanding how I can, as a leader, die to myself. The trends of leaders hanging onto power until they die and younger leaders moving out of our fellowship is a blatant reality that tells us we are not cultivating this reality very well. While worldview therapy may be happening in some areas, the big picture stats say this is not common—its the exception. Until we all can call our reality what it is, we will not get very far discussing solutions. My gut tells me the solution is death (both young and old), but to get there we need to acknowledge the damage we’ve caused by not acting earlier.
How this worked for me and those guys who actually stepped up and tried…key word….TRIED….to work through challenges with me…they simply loved me and made it apparent they loved me….Imparted wisdom, yes but more importantly, I knew they loved me no matter what….even in my shortcomings and, yes I will dare to say, my failures. This departure from the lone-ranger, success-driven model and a desire to be relational with me paid dividends…BIG TIME! I learned from these guys that a Pastor’s heart is supposed to be tender and loving toward his sheep…unrelentingly loyal and out for the best interest of those under his care…even if they, they sheep, dont get it….It was easy then for me to see past their missteps in our relationship…when their failures and misguided leadership errors that we in this generation are so adept at pointing out showed up, I was able to see them through a different lens….because I had experienced the Love of Christ in their life not just corporately but personally in our “mentoring” relationship. Interestingly, because of those who were willing to sow this way, God has birthed a desire in me to share this same thing with those younger than me…as well as give time to those older than me…it has been very rewarding…
well said apprehensive.
I appreciate Apprehensive’s statements and totally concur with Joel concerning the discipline of death. From my viewpoint, I see more attempts at cloning, rather than mentoring, coming from the older generation. Certainly, their experience is greatly valuable. However, to build on Copeland’s statement earlier, the idea of spiritual families has teeth here….raise up a child in the way THEY should go. Too often, I have seen older ministers dictate actions and attitudes; thus, producing younger ministers who are literally clones. Fortunately, I have had those “cloning” pastors and genuine mentors in my life. Because of this, I am very choosy as to who I allow significant influence in my life. I can easily understand why the young people Garland speaks of are a bit frustrated. A display of the love of Christ (from Apprehensive’s statement) is what is desired, rather than one man’s idea of how ministry & discipleship should be carried out.
There is still no one explaining how this works PRACTICALLY in an actual LIFE REAL LIFE setting in a community. Where have any of you seen postmodern leaders and modern leaders work together in the same church and how does it work without the postmodern agreeing to concede EVERYTHING.
and if the post modern agrees to concede everything, what’s the point?
I don’t want meaningless pipe dreams, I want real life actual accounts of this WORKING and how they made it work.
Pastors, young and old, are like those drivers who get behind the wheel and become possessed by a different person. They step into the moment/circumstance/situation in which they are pastor and they go into pastor mode. One has one mode and the other another, but it’s still posing on both sides of the equation. I think a lot of bridges could be built if it was all right to be authentic, and we actually took time to know each other, but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
It’s probably is not going to work in a denominational church…unless you can find a seasoned pastor to work with/submit to…
...to be honest, I don’t know of anywhere I’ve seen it work in my travels here in the US
Well Ari, it would be very easy to be offended by the Tone of your pragmatism…I thought I did give you specific examples (two different mentors in my life) and the how was they simply worked WITH me as opposed to “cloning” themselves into me. That was an awesome observation DeWayne. The rubber-meeting-the-road in this thing is mutual respect and as was said earlier, dying to one’s self….both parties….not just the Young and not just the old….both have to be willing to crucify, so to speak, their own agendas to gain what God wants to teach through the other person. This willingness is important in our growth….when we are unwilling to put aside OUR ways….whatever that might mean (style, ambitions, personal views, etc.)that unwillingness hinders the relational learning that God creates with others; the whole iron sharpens iron thing. I admit this is hard and take maturity, which frankly is quite rare these days on both sides of the fence (young and old). But when we are WILLING (not a door mat)...God blesses the relationship and so much depth and rich learning happens….but it starts with willingness and vulnerability…recognizing that you may get hurt a couple of times….actually alot of times…and that is okay….
Often these older pastors lived in a fishbowl, subject to whims beyond their control. They were alone for long periods in their ministries. They don’t trust too many people as a result of betrayal and the isolation that went with the task. They survived, some flourished and maybe a little, or a lot, of ego got elevated in the process. Young guns want a piece of the decision making pie now, some empathy, mutual respect, collegial relationships. Old guys are going to look at that and just scratch their heads, and say put in your time under the hammer, and then we’ll talk about it (they won’t, but they might say it). This is cats and dogs if you ask me.
apprehensive, you gave me an example of mentorship – you didn’t give an example of postmodern and modern LEADERS actually functioning TOGETHER fully within an existing church system.
if the only thing we’re talking about here is “mentorship” – - which is sort of a defunct concept anyway – -then yes, I have experienced good relationships with older and/or more experienced people within the modern system.
There isn’t a “tone” in my question, it’s a real question.
I hear a lot of people talking about how this sort of “Cooperation” is needed but I haven’t actually seen anyone give examples of it working unless either the younger gives up all of their progressive ideas and dreams and the older takes over. (but not even older younger – - this happens with any preservationist and progressive)
I’ve been in this for a long time now and hits close to home. frankly, people talking about how “nice it would be” for people to “work together” is a bit tiresome if they’re talking in the context of an existing church system because in all my communications, no one has yet to show me how this works.
And it’s important to actually talk about how it’s going to work because this is a REAL problem in the church today.
apprehensive, you said something key above – the “olders” have to be willing to lay down a lot. Unfortunately, in many situations, its the more progressive ones who are expected to lay it all down.
I have some very personal feelings on this subject based on my own life, outside of ministry….To me, the mentoring relationships and the melding together of post-modern with modern really do go together. These relationships build trust between the two and with trust comes a willingness to see things from each other’s point of view. That really is the problem with the “lone ranger” mentality. There is little trust and NO willingness to try new things. I definitely understand how “tiresome” this conversation has become but it is still an issue worth talking about nonetheless….The biggest thing I am learning in this season of my life is that if I am willing to die to myself….and everything that goes with that including my own dreams and ambitions for ministry….God will pick up the pieces and create something more beautiful and more effective than if I stubbornly pushed forward. SO, in the context of post-modern leaders working with modern leaders, yes I do think it starts with personal(mentoring) relationships….This is why I thought Earl’s discussion of reverse mentoring was crucial in his ORD…..But I truly think the key in these relationships is putting the OTHER person’s needs first…and in turn yours will be met…
sigh I’m sorry that I’m getting frustrated but I’m not talking about mentoring relationships. I have no doubt those exist with pomo and moderns. I have many of these types of relationships. I’m also tired of the “lone ranger” term, it really has not significant meaning anymore and it usually used as a term of manipulation by certain ones in high power roles.
I agree with what you’re saying – - but you’re not hearing me. I am asking, have you ever EXPERIENCED a young pomo LEADER, working in an entrenched MODERN church and doing it successfully. By definition, this doesn’t work. Once the modern leader allows the pomo leader to be who he/she is, by definition, that modern leader is no longer fully modern anyway.
So what I’m saying is that it’s not happening. you all are talking in hypotheticals and theorticals – - what you’re talking about is just not happening in this idyllic way that you ar proposing. If it is, it’s no longer a modern and pomo working together.
the discussion is tiresome because it’s people who aren’t actually DOING it, telling those of use who have been forced to break away from modernity (outside of close personal relationships) that we’re lone rangers or that we’re doing something wrong.
I want to talk to someone who has actually done it and then we can talk. otherwise, it’s all pipe dreams
Maybe we are not hearing each other….I am understanding what you are saying and am trying to answer your extremely pragmatic question…..and incidentally, the “lone-ranger” comment was meant more for “modern” leaders than for Post-modern leaders….POMO leaders as you call them, are more inclined to work within a team structure not on their own….the “go it alone” thing is a characteristic of the modern leader….the other thing is, I was not proposing anything….I was actually sharing what has traspired in my own life experience (ministry). In reality, at least from where I sit, the only way that post modern and modern leaders can really truly “WORK” together is through mentoring relationships first….once that is established, the door is open for both to express themselves in a healthy environment with trust and understanding that the other is going the same direction with different modes of thought (epistemology) and methods (orthopraxy). Different doesnt mean better or worse, just means different, but if you dont trust each other different equals alot more than different. That is what I am trying to get across here and IT IS happening and has happend in my life.